Using Schach held Together with Wire
There has been recent discussion about using bamboo mats as Schach where the strips of bamboo are strung together with metal wires. What is the issue of concern and what is the Halachic status?
The issue at hand is that of being Maamid (supporting the Schach) with something that is Mekabel Tumah or is otherwise invalid as Schach. In this case, the bamboo itself is Kosher Schach. But if the wire (which is not Kosher as Schach) is holding the Schach in place, the concern of Maamid may apply.
Background sources
The Mishna[1] teaches that if one supports the Schach of their Sukkah with the legs of a bed, the Chachamim consider the Sukkah to be Kosher. Rabbi Yehuda invalidates the Sukkah if the Schach would be unable to stand in place without the bed as support.
The Amoraim argue over the reason behind Rabbi Yehuda’s strict ruling. One Amora explains that it is because such a Sukkah lacks permanence and would easily fall. The other explains that the problem is that one is supporting the Schach with something that is Mekabel Tumah (a bed).
The difference between these two reasons would arise where one supported the Schach with metal spits which are driven into the ground. According to the first explanation the Sukkah would be valid as it will be permanent. However, according to the second view, the Sukkah would be invalid because the spits are Mekabel Tumah.
What is the rationale of forbidding the supporting of Kosher Schach with something that is Mekabel Tumah (Maamid)?
The Ra”n and most other Rishonim explain that this is a Rabbinic Gezeira lest one come to use the Mekabel Tumah as Schach itself. This would certainly be invalid.
However Rashi explains that the prohibition is because the Maamid (supporting object) is what “makes” the Schach and therefore it is considered as though one has covered the Sukkah with the Mekabel Tumah itself.
Based on both explanations, it is understood that the law of Maamid applies to supporting the Schach with any material that is not Kosher as Schach, even if it is not Mekabel Tumah.
The Rishonim on the law of Maamid?
Do we follow the view of the Chachamim (who are not concerned at all) or according to Rabbi Yehudah? Even according to Rabbi Yehuda, is the reason for invalidating the Sukkah because of Maamid or because to the other reason?
The Terumas Hadeshen[2] addresses the question whether one may place a ladder on top of the Schach to hold it in place.
The Ta”z[3] explains that the doubt revolves around whether the ladder is Mekabel Tumah. On one hand the ladder does not have a Beis Kibbul and therefore has the status of Peshutei Kli Eitz (flat wooden vessels) which is not Mekabel Tumah.
However, there are holes in the side poles of the ladder into which the rungs are inserted. These cavities may render the ladder Mekabel Tumah.
The Terumas Hadeshen rules leniently. Since they are not Mekabel Tumah, such wooden ladders may even be used as Schach itself. However, other Rishonim, including the Rashba[4], argue and do consider ladders to be Mekabel Tumah and forbid their use as Schach.
The Mahari”l[5] writes that one may not use a ladder as Schach as it is Mekabel Tumah. He adds that one may also not place the ladder on top of Schach to weigh it down and hold it in place. The same applies to using any object that is Mekabel Tumah to support the Schach.
In the next responsa, the Terumas Hadeshen allows one to nail down the Schach or to tie it in place with strips of fabric, even though they are Mekabel Tumah. Even though we follow the ruling of Rabbi Yehuda in the Mishna[6], we accept the reasoning that it is because the Sukkah lacks permanence and not the reason that it is because of Maamid[7].
In contrast, the Ra”n[8] rules like the explanation in the Gemara that the invalidation is because of Maamid[9].
The Rulings of the Shulchan Aruch
The Beis Yosef[10] brings the various opinions in the Rishonim in the case of a ladder and in the discussion on Maamid without reaching a conclusion. The rulings in the Shulchan Aruch are also unclear and appear contradictory.
· In Siman 629 Se’if 7, the Mechaber writes “there is a doubt whether one may place a ladder on top of the Sukkah roof in order to place the Schach on top of it.” The Ram”o, quoting the Mahari”l adds that likewise, due to the same concern, one would not be able place the ladder on top of the Schach to hold it in place.
· In the following Se’if, the Mechaber writes that there is no concern to secure the beams in place using metal nails or by tying it with strips of material.
· In Siman 630 Se”if 13, the Mechaber discusses the case of the Mishna concerning supporting the Schach with the legs of a bed. He writes that as long as there is 10 Tefachim between the bed and the Schach, the Sukkah is kosher. He makes no mention of the issue of Maamid.
What is the Halacha?
The Ta”z[11] maintains that the Shulchan Aruch is not concerned about Maamid[12]. He also asserts that this is the opinion of the Ram”o. He proves this based on the fact that the Ram”o does not argue with the ruling of the Mechaber in the case of nailing Schach in place.
The reason the Mechaber has a doubt in the case of the ladder is because the case involves a ladder which is 4 Tefachim wide. This is also the explanation for the Ram”o’s ruling.
The Magen Avraham[13] takes a different approach to reconciling the rulings of the Shulchan Aruch. The ruling in Siman 630 which does not forbid the Sukkah because of Maamid is the ruling Bedieved. The ruling concerning the ladder discusses the law Lechatchilah that one may not support the Schach.
The case of nailing the beams is permissible according to all opinions. It does not refer to securing the Schach itself with the nails or fabric. Rather it refers to securing the beams which will be supporting the Schach. This is permissible under the principle of Maamid Demaamid which is clearly permitted according to the Gemara[14].
The Alter Rebbe’s ruling
The Alter Rebbe rules like the distinction of the Magen Avraham. Lechatchilah one may not support the Schach or weigh it down with something that is Mekabel Tumah. However, Bedieved, if the Sukkah was already made, one may even eat in the Sukkah Lechachilah[15].
Other Acharonim including the Mishna Berura and Chayei Adam also follow the ruling of the Magen Avraham.
The opinion of the Bach
In contrast to the Ta”z who is completely lenient, and the Magen Avraham who is lenient Bedieved, the Bach takes a stricter approach and forbids such a Sukkah even Bedieved.
This is based on the explanation of Rashi that the disqualification of being Maamid with something that is Mekabel Tumah, is not because of a Gezeira but rather because the status of the Schach follows that which holds it in place i.e. it is considered as though the Sukkah is actually covered with invalid Schach.
The Acharonim do not adopt the Bach’s strict approach.
Definition of Bedieved
The wording of the Alter Rebbe implies that once the Sukkah has already been erected with the Schach supported by something that is invalid, it becomes Kosher Lechatchilah and that there is no requirement (or Hiddur) to take it down and change the supports, even before Sukkos. One who visits such a Sukkah may eat there without any concern.
There are Poskim who take a stricter approach and rule that Lechatchilah one who does not need to, should refrain from eating in a Sukkah that has an invalid Maamid. In family situations one may lenient for example where one’s parents-in-law are lenient[16].
A case of Shaas Hadechak, where there is no other way to secure or support the Schach, is also considered as a Bedieved and one may build the Sukkah in such a manner.
Note: The leniency of Bedieved only applies if the Sukkah was already erected in this manner this Sukkos. One may not rely on this Lechatchilah to support the Schach in this manner in future years.
When the invalid material is not needed
Even according to the Poskim who adopt the prohibition of Maamid, this is only where the material or object that is Mekabel Tumah (or otherwise invalid as Sechach) is required to support the Schach i.e. without the support, the Schach would not remain in place or would be blown away by a common wind or shift to the extent that the Sukkah has invalidating airspaces or majority sunlight.
Where the Schach is heavy enough to remain in place by itself, or is otherwise secured in place with material that itself is Kosher for Schach, the Sukkah is Kosher even Lechatchilah as the Mekabel Tumah is not functioning as a Maamid.
Even the Bach would permit the Sukkah Lechatchilah in this scenario.
Application to bamboo mats and fencing
The discussion above applies to mats made of light bamboo strips or reeds which are strung together. Maamid will not apply to heavy or large bamboos which are capable of staying in place on their own are acceptable even if tied together.
Maamid does not apply if the fibre used to hold the Schach is itself kosher for Schach such as a natural material that grows from the ground such as flax, cotton or jute. If the fibre has been spun into thread[17], Maamid will apply.
The issue of Maamid will apply where the reeds are strung together with synthetic materials such as nylon or plastic, or with other materials that are invalid as Schach such as metal wire[18].
Technically if the reeds are well supported from below and weighted down on top with Kosher materials, the fact that they are strung together with invalid materials become irrelevant.
The Schach should be placed with the reeds lying perpendicular to the beams supporting the Schach and there should be sufficient beam underneath to hold the Schach up in place. The support beams on top should also be laid perpendicular to the reeds, with enough beams and weight to secure the Schach in place. This should be tested.
Despite the fact that there are permissible ways to lay such mats and the Din of Maamid is only Lechatchilah, most Rabbonim maintain that it is preferable to purchase mats that are made with fibres that are Kosher as Schach which are sold with a Hechsher[19]. This is especially for Chassidim who go out of their way to be Mehader in Mitzvos.
The reason to be stringent is that many people are not proficient in the Halachos and will not build the correct support. Even if one is proficient in the Halachos, guests visiting the Sukkah may not understand the nuance and will use similar fencing or mats without ensuring the proper support[20].
Typically, these mats are more expensive. One who faces financial difficulty should seek guidance from a Rov about the possibility of using other types of mats and how to support them correctly.
Another concern raised by some Kashrus agencies[21] is that bamboo fencing may be spread loosely, leaving gaps that result in there being more sunlight than shade in the Sukkah. This could be overcome by using a double layer of the fencing.
The Chicago Kashrus agency cRc writes:
“Until 2017, the cRc recommended certain readily available fencing material (commonly sold in Home Depot) to be used for schach and provided detailed instructions on how to place them on the sukkah. However, based on feedback from consumers on the sturdiness of those materials and how they were being used, we stopped issuing those recommendations [and also stopped researching these types of products] because we determined that there is a reasonable chance that some people will end up not having kosher schach[22] for their sukkah. We suggest that consumers use traditional schach material such as bamboo poles, tree branches, or mats specifically certified for sukkah use.”
Before concluding, it should be noted that there are Poskim who do not allow the use of any mats for Schach because of the concerns of Gezeiras Tikra (resembling a roof)[23]. Most Poskim are not concerned and write that Gezeira Tikra does not apply to mats. Others[24] opposed the use of mats as they were a deviation from the custom of our ancestors.
[1] Sukkah 21b
[2] Siman 91
[3] 629:9. This explanation is brought by the Alter Rebbe 629:19
[4] Siman 195
[5] Hilchos Sukkah Siman 7
[6] Rif 10a as explained by Rosh. Even though the Halacha usually follows the majority view, the fact that the Amoraim discuss the opinion of Rabbi Yehuda in greater depth indicates that they adopt his position as Halacha. Rabbi Zerachia Halevi rules like the Chachamim.
[7] Ashiri Siman 1. Also the opinion of the Rosh
[8] 10a ד"ה לענין הלכה
[9] See Teshuvos Hameyuchasos Siman 216 for a different explanation that the nails connecting the beams firmly in place creates a roof which is subject to Gezeira Tikra
[10] Siman 629 and Siman 630
[11] 630:14, 629:7
[12] This is also the ruling of the Levush, however it is based on a slightly different distinction
[13] 629:9
[14] Opinion of Abaye
[15] 629:12-13
[16] Rabbi Nissin Karelitz
[17] Shaar Hatziun 629:20
[18] Metal wire is not Mekabel Tumah, but it is invalid as Schach as it does not grow from the ground
[19] See Piskei Teshuvos 629:6
[20] Being concerned for this is a Midas Chassidus and not because of a genuine Maris Ayin, because even if they don’t ensure the correct support, Bedieved the Sukkah is Kosher.
[21] cRc
[22] This is questionable as the issue of Maamid is only Lechatchilah. Perhaps they are addressing the concern of the bamboo shifting or being spread out and not providing sufficient shade.
[23] Rav Elyashiv quoted in Az Nidberu, Tzitz Eliezer 10:29
[24] Shevet Halevi 6:74, Az Nidberu, Avnei Nezer 473
The issue at hand is that of being Maamid (supporting the Schach) with something that is Mekabel Tumah or is otherwise invalid as Schach. In this case, the bamboo itself is Kosher Schach. But if the wire (which is not Kosher as Schach) is holding the Schach in place, the concern of Maamid may apply.
Background sources
The Mishna[1] teaches that if one supports the Schach of their Sukkah with the legs of a bed, the Chachamim consider the Sukkah to be Kosher. Rabbi Yehuda invalidates the Sukkah if the Schach would be unable to stand in place without the bed as support.
The Amoraim argue over the reason behind Rabbi Yehuda’s strict ruling. One Amora explains that it is because such a Sukkah lacks permanence and would easily fall. The other explains that the problem is that one is supporting the Schach with something that is Mekabel Tumah (a bed).
The difference between these two reasons would arise where one supported the Schach with metal spits which are driven into the ground. According to the first explanation the Sukkah would be valid as it will be permanent. However, according to the second view, the Sukkah would be invalid because the spits are Mekabel Tumah.
What is the rationale of forbidding the supporting of Kosher Schach with something that is Mekabel Tumah (Maamid)?
The Ra”n and most other Rishonim explain that this is a Rabbinic Gezeira lest one come to use the Mekabel Tumah as Schach itself. This would certainly be invalid.
However Rashi explains that the prohibition is because the Maamid (supporting object) is what “makes” the Schach and therefore it is considered as though one has covered the Sukkah with the Mekabel Tumah itself.
Based on both explanations, it is understood that the law of Maamid applies to supporting the Schach with any material that is not Kosher as Schach, even if it is not Mekabel Tumah.
The Rishonim on the law of Maamid?
Do we follow the view of the Chachamim (who are not concerned at all) or according to Rabbi Yehudah? Even according to Rabbi Yehuda, is the reason for invalidating the Sukkah because of Maamid or because to the other reason?
The Terumas Hadeshen[2] addresses the question whether one may place a ladder on top of the Schach to hold it in place.
The Ta”z[3] explains that the doubt revolves around whether the ladder is Mekabel Tumah. On one hand the ladder does not have a Beis Kibbul and therefore has the status of Peshutei Kli Eitz (flat wooden vessels) which is not Mekabel Tumah.
However, there are holes in the side poles of the ladder into which the rungs are inserted. These cavities may render the ladder Mekabel Tumah.
The Terumas Hadeshen rules leniently. Since they are not Mekabel Tumah, such wooden ladders may even be used as Schach itself. However, other Rishonim, including the Rashba[4], argue and do consider ladders to be Mekabel Tumah and forbid their use as Schach.
The Mahari”l[5] writes that one may not use a ladder as Schach as it is Mekabel Tumah. He adds that one may also not place the ladder on top of Schach to weigh it down and hold it in place. The same applies to using any object that is Mekabel Tumah to support the Schach.
In the next responsa, the Terumas Hadeshen allows one to nail down the Schach or to tie it in place with strips of fabric, even though they are Mekabel Tumah. Even though we follow the ruling of Rabbi Yehuda in the Mishna[6], we accept the reasoning that it is because the Sukkah lacks permanence and not the reason that it is because of Maamid[7].
In contrast, the Ra”n[8] rules like the explanation in the Gemara that the invalidation is because of Maamid[9].
The Rulings of the Shulchan Aruch
The Beis Yosef[10] brings the various opinions in the Rishonim in the case of a ladder and in the discussion on Maamid without reaching a conclusion. The rulings in the Shulchan Aruch are also unclear and appear contradictory.
· In Siman 629 Se’if 7, the Mechaber writes “there is a doubt whether one may place a ladder on top of the Sukkah roof in order to place the Schach on top of it.” The Ram”o, quoting the Mahari”l adds that likewise, due to the same concern, one would not be able place the ladder on top of the Schach to hold it in place.
· In the following Se’if, the Mechaber writes that there is no concern to secure the beams in place using metal nails or by tying it with strips of material.
· In Siman 630 Se”if 13, the Mechaber discusses the case of the Mishna concerning supporting the Schach with the legs of a bed. He writes that as long as there is 10 Tefachim between the bed and the Schach, the Sukkah is kosher. He makes no mention of the issue of Maamid.
What is the Halacha?
The Ta”z[11] maintains that the Shulchan Aruch is not concerned about Maamid[12]. He also asserts that this is the opinion of the Ram”o. He proves this based on the fact that the Ram”o does not argue with the ruling of the Mechaber in the case of nailing Schach in place.
The reason the Mechaber has a doubt in the case of the ladder is because the case involves a ladder which is 4 Tefachim wide. This is also the explanation for the Ram”o’s ruling.
The Magen Avraham[13] takes a different approach to reconciling the rulings of the Shulchan Aruch. The ruling in Siman 630 which does not forbid the Sukkah because of Maamid is the ruling Bedieved. The ruling concerning the ladder discusses the law Lechatchilah that one may not support the Schach.
The case of nailing the beams is permissible according to all opinions. It does not refer to securing the Schach itself with the nails or fabric. Rather it refers to securing the beams which will be supporting the Schach. This is permissible under the principle of Maamid Demaamid which is clearly permitted according to the Gemara[14].
The Alter Rebbe’s ruling
The Alter Rebbe rules like the distinction of the Magen Avraham. Lechatchilah one may not support the Schach or weigh it down with something that is Mekabel Tumah. However, Bedieved, if the Sukkah was already made, one may even eat in the Sukkah Lechachilah[15].
Other Acharonim including the Mishna Berura and Chayei Adam also follow the ruling of the Magen Avraham.
The opinion of the Bach
In contrast to the Ta”z who is completely lenient, and the Magen Avraham who is lenient Bedieved, the Bach takes a stricter approach and forbids such a Sukkah even Bedieved.
This is based on the explanation of Rashi that the disqualification of being Maamid with something that is Mekabel Tumah, is not because of a Gezeira but rather because the status of the Schach follows that which holds it in place i.e. it is considered as though the Sukkah is actually covered with invalid Schach.
The Acharonim do not adopt the Bach’s strict approach.
Definition of Bedieved
The wording of the Alter Rebbe implies that once the Sukkah has already been erected with the Schach supported by something that is invalid, it becomes Kosher Lechatchilah and that there is no requirement (or Hiddur) to take it down and change the supports, even before Sukkos. One who visits such a Sukkah may eat there without any concern.
There are Poskim who take a stricter approach and rule that Lechatchilah one who does not need to, should refrain from eating in a Sukkah that has an invalid Maamid. In family situations one may lenient for example where one’s parents-in-law are lenient[16].
A case of Shaas Hadechak, where there is no other way to secure or support the Schach, is also considered as a Bedieved and one may build the Sukkah in such a manner.
Note: The leniency of Bedieved only applies if the Sukkah was already erected in this manner this Sukkos. One may not rely on this Lechatchilah to support the Schach in this manner in future years.
When the invalid material is not needed
Even according to the Poskim who adopt the prohibition of Maamid, this is only where the material or object that is Mekabel Tumah (or otherwise invalid as Sechach) is required to support the Schach i.e. without the support, the Schach would not remain in place or would be blown away by a common wind or shift to the extent that the Sukkah has invalidating airspaces or majority sunlight.
Where the Schach is heavy enough to remain in place by itself, or is otherwise secured in place with material that itself is Kosher for Schach, the Sukkah is Kosher even Lechatchilah as the Mekabel Tumah is not functioning as a Maamid.
Even the Bach would permit the Sukkah Lechatchilah in this scenario.
Application to bamboo mats and fencing
The discussion above applies to mats made of light bamboo strips or reeds which are strung together. Maamid will not apply to heavy or large bamboos which are capable of staying in place on their own are acceptable even if tied together.
Maamid does not apply if the fibre used to hold the Schach is itself kosher for Schach such as a natural material that grows from the ground such as flax, cotton or jute. If the fibre has been spun into thread[17], Maamid will apply.
The issue of Maamid will apply where the reeds are strung together with synthetic materials such as nylon or plastic, or with other materials that are invalid as Schach such as metal wire[18].
Technically if the reeds are well supported from below and weighted down on top with Kosher materials, the fact that they are strung together with invalid materials become irrelevant.
The Schach should be placed with the reeds lying perpendicular to the beams supporting the Schach and there should be sufficient beam underneath to hold the Schach up in place. The support beams on top should also be laid perpendicular to the reeds, with enough beams and weight to secure the Schach in place. This should be tested.
Despite the fact that there are permissible ways to lay such mats and the Din of Maamid is only Lechatchilah, most Rabbonim maintain that it is preferable to purchase mats that are made with fibres that are Kosher as Schach which are sold with a Hechsher[19]. This is especially for Chassidim who go out of their way to be Mehader in Mitzvos.
The reason to be stringent is that many people are not proficient in the Halachos and will not build the correct support. Even if one is proficient in the Halachos, guests visiting the Sukkah may not understand the nuance and will use similar fencing or mats without ensuring the proper support[20].
Typically, these mats are more expensive. One who faces financial difficulty should seek guidance from a Rov about the possibility of using other types of mats and how to support them correctly.
Another concern raised by some Kashrus agencies[21] is that bamboo fencing may be spread loosely, leaving gaps that result in there being more sunlight than shade in the Sukkah. This could be overcome by using a double layer of the fencing.
The Chicago Kashrus agency cRc writes:
“Until 2017, the cRc recommended certain readily available fencing material (commonly sold in Home Depot) to be used for schach and provided detailed instructions on how to place them on the sukkah. However, based on feedback from consumers on the sturdiness of those materials and how they were being used, we stopped issuing those recommendations [and also stopped researching these types of products] because we determined that there is a reasonable chance that some people will end up not having kosher schach[22] for their sukkah. We suggest that consumers use traditional schach material such as bamboo poles, tree branches, or mats specifically certified for sukkah use.”
Before concluding, it should be noted that there are Poskim who do not allow the use of any mats for Schach because of the concerns of Gezeiras Tikra (resembling a roof)[23]. Most Poskim are not concerned and write that Gezeira Tikra does not apply to mats. Others[24] opposed the use of mats as they were a deviation from the custom of our ancestors.
[1] Sukkah 21b
[2] Siman 91
[3] 629:9. This explanation is brought by the Alter Rebbe 629:19
[4] Siman 195
[5] Hilchos Sukkah Siman 7
[6] Rif 10a as explained by Rosh. Even though the Halacha usually follows the majority view, the fact that the Amoraim discuss the opinion of Rabbi Yehuda in greater depth indicates that they adopt his position as Halacha. Rabbi Zerachia Halevi rules like the Chachamim.
[7] Ashiri Siman 1. Also the opinion of the Rosh
[8] 10a ד"ה לענין הלכה
[9] See Teshuvos Hameyuchasos Siman 216 for a different explanation that the nails connecting the beams firmly in place creates a roof which is subject to Gezeira Tikra
[10] Siman 629 and Siman 630
[11] 630:14, 629:7
[12] This is also the ruling of the Levush, however it is based on a slightly different distinction
[13] 629:9
[14] Opinion of Abaye
[15] 629:12-13
[16] Rabbi Nissin Karelitz
[17] Shaar Hatziun 629:20
[18] Metal wire is not Mekabel Tumah, but it is invalid as Schach as it does not grow from the ground
[19] See Piskei Teshuvos 629:6
[20] Being concerned for this is a Midas Chassidus and not because of a genuine Maris Ayin, because even if they don’t ensure the correct support, Bedieved the Sukkah is Kosher.
[21] cRc
[22] This is questionable as the issue of Maamid is only Lechatchilah. Perhaps they are addressing the concern of the bamboo shifting or being spread out and not providing sufficient shade.
[23] Rav Elyashiv quoted in Az Nidberu, Tzitz Eliezer 10:29
[24] Shevet Halevi 6:74, Az Nidberu, Avnei Nezer 473