Putting Hot Cholent on Cold Salad on Shabbos
Q. I was at someone’s house recently for Shabbos and noticed that they served the cholent in separate bowls. What is the reason for this practice and is it necessary?
On Shabbos it is forbidden to cook. Cooking can happen in a variety of ways, even without directly putting things on the stove or into an oven. Halachically, foods and liquids can retain the ability to cook other foods that they come into contact with, depending on their temperature and how far removed they are from the original fire source. The general rules are as follows;
The pot that was on the fire or in the oven, referred to as a Kli Rishon, will cook all foods even if it is not presently on the fire. This applies where the temperature of the pot is above Yad Soledes Bo[1] (40oC)[2]. An example of this would be adding pepper to the soup pot or cholent, even after it was removed from the fire.
Food or liquid which is poured directly from the Kli Rishon also has the ability to cause cooking. In this case, it only has the ability to cook K’dei Klipah - the outer layer of the food onto which it is poured. An example of this would be pouring water from the urn directly onto lemon or tea leaves.
Food or liquid that has been transferred to a Kli Sheini, such as a bowl or plate, does not generally have the ability to cook. However, some foods cook easily and will cook even in a Kli Sheini which is Yad Soledes Bo. These are called Kalei Habishul (easily cooked). Since we are not expert in which foods fall into this category, we cannot place any uncooked foods into a Kli Sheini. The exceptions are liquids and spices, since they are clearly specified in the Talmud as not being able to cook in a Kli Sheini.
If the food is further transferred from the Kli Sheini into another bowl or plate, it will then have the status of a Kli Shlishi. The general Halachic concensus is that a Kli Shlishi no longer has the ability to cause cooking at all, even if it is over Yad Soledes Bo.
When food is served from a Kli Rishon with a ladle onto a plate or serving bowl, the ladle may be viewed as the Kli Sheini, making the bowl a Kli Shlishi. This is subject to dispute as there are those who view the ladle as an extension of the Kli Rishon.
Based on the discussion above, if hot meat, kugel or cholent is served onto a plate from the pot or pan that was on the fire, it should have the status of a Kli Sheini. If it was served on a platter and then put onto one’s plate, it should have the status of a Kli Shlishi. Theoretically it should not have the ability to cook.
But this is not necessarily the case. Here we introduce the stringency of a Davar Gush, literally a solid piece.
The Shulchan Aruch[3] rules that one may not rub oil or garlic onto roast meat that is by the fire, since the meat will cook the oil or garlic. The Magen Avraham[4] adds that the same applies even if the meat has been removed from the fire. He then goes a step further, stating that the same Halacha would apply even if the meat was placed in a Kli Sheini.
This ruling follows the opinion of the Poskim[5] who maintain that a hot Davar Gush that is Yad Soledes Bo, will still be able to cook even if it is in a Kli Sheini or even a Kli Shlishi.
The reason that a food in a Kli Sheini is generally unable to cook is because the food cools off as a result of being placed into a vessel that is cold. However, a solid object retains its original heat even when it is transferred to subsequent Kelim. As such, a Davar Gush which is Yad Soledes Bo will retain its ability to cook foods that it comes in contact with, no matter how many subsequent vessels it is transferred to.
Following this opinion, the solid pieces of potato and meat in the cholent would have the status of Davar Gush. If they were to be placed on a plate and come in contact with non-cooked foods (or with previously cooked moist foods that are now cold) such as salads, dips or pickles, the cholent pieces would have the ability to cook these other foods.
The same concern would apply to dipping Challah[6] into hot cholent. Adding condiments to the hot cholent, such as ketchup, mustard and even salt, would also be problematic[7]. The concern with adding condiments or salt would apply even if the cholent is served in a separate bowl.
It should be noted, that the rule of a Davar Gush itself is subject to debate and not all Halachic authorities agree with the stringency[8]. The lenient opinion does not distinguish between the type of food, whether it is solid pieces or not. The fact that the walls of the Kli Sheini are cold is the primary factor to be considered.
The Mishna Berura[9] rules that Lechatchila we are concerned for the opinion of the Magen Avraham, that a Davar Gush continues to be able to cook. However Bedieved, if food were to come into contact with a hot Davar Gush in a Kli Sheini, we would rely on the lenient opinion and not prohibit the food.
In the laws of cooking on Shabbos, the Alter Rebbe[10] brings the ruling of the Shulchan Aruch that one may not rub oil on roasted meat that is Yad Soledes Bo. He does not mention the stringency that this would apply even if the meat was in a Kli Sheini. However, in an earlier Siman, the Alter Rebbe[11] brings the stricter opinion that a Davar Gush will cook even in a Kli Sheini.
Toras Haasham writes that even according to the strict opinion, the rule of a Davar Gush only applies when the solid piece of food is on its own. If the solid food is served together with liquid, just as the liquid will not cook in a Kli Sheini or Kli Shlishi, so too the solid will not be able to cook. An example of this would be a piece of carrot served in a bowl of soup. This would apply even after the liquid is
subsequently removed. If so, the Davar Gush principle would be limited to cases such as a hot piece of kugel or dry-roasted vegetables or meat.
This leniency could be applied to cholent. Since the potatoes and meat from the cholent are mixed with the cholent liquid or sauce, the rule of Davar Gush would not apply. There are however those who reject this leniency entirely[12].
The general approach is that since many Poskim say that there is no stringency of a Davar Gush at all, we can rely on the leniency of the Toras Haasham, that even if a Davar Gush can cook in a Kli Sheini or Kli Shlishi, it will not be able to do so if served with liquid.
Those who wish to be more stringent with a Davar Gush, even when it is served with liquids, have Halachic basis for their practise. This would especially be so if the liquid has cooked away and the cholent has dried out.
______________________________
[1] There is also a stringency to never place anything into a Kli Roshon even if it is less than Yad Soledes Bo
[2] Literally Yad Soledes Bo means that one’s hand recoils from it due to the hot temperature. There is debate amongst the Poskim what temperature Yad Soledes Bo is. Opinions range from 40-45oC. One should be Machmir and be concerned for the lowest measure.
[3] End of Orach Chaim Siman 318
[4] Orach Chaim 318:45
[5] Shach Yoreh Deah 105:8. Maharshal in Yam Shel Shlomo Chullin chapter 7 and Issur Vheter Klal 36
[6] Even though the Challah is fully baked, it is still subject to cooking in a hot liquid. Whilst we say אין בישול אחר בישול , there is בישול אחר אפיה. This means that a baked or dry-roasted food could further in a liquid.
[7] Rock or non-sea salt would certainly be problematic. There are also grounds to be strict even with sea salt which was processed through cooking.
[8] Ram”o in Toras Chatas 1:13 and Darkei Moshe Yoreh Deah 105:4. Tzemach Tzedek (Yoreh Deah 65). Chavas Daas (94:15) points out that even the Maharshal would only be stringent in regards to transfer of taste in relation to the laws of Kashrus, but not concerning cooking on Shabbos. See also Pri Megadim (M.Z. 94:14) and Aruch Hashulchan (94:32).
[9] Seif Koton 118
[10] Orach Chaim 318
[11] Orach Chaim 253 Kuntres Acharon 11
[12] Yad Yehudah 105:14, Chavos Daas 91:13 and Chasam Sofer Yoreh Deah responsa 98
On Shabbos it is forbidden to cook. Cooking can happen in a variety of ways, even without directly putting things on the stove or into an oven. Halachically, foods and liquids can retain the ability to cook other foods that they come into contact with, depending on their temperature and how far removed they are from the original fire source. The general rules are as follows;
The pot that was on the fire or in the oven, referred to as a Kli Rishon, will cook all foods even if it is not presently on the fire. This applies where the temperature of the pot is above Yad Soledes Bo[1] (40oC)[2]. An example of this would be adding pepper to the soup pot or cholent, even after it was removed from the fire.
Food or liquid which is poured directly from the Kli Rishon also has the ability to cause cooking. In this case, it only has the ability to cook K’dei Klipah - the outer layer of the food onto which it is poured. An example of this would be pouring water from the urn directly onto lemon or tea leaves.
Food or liquid that has been transferred to a Kli Sheini, such as a bowl or plate, does not generally have the ability to cook. However, some foods cook easily and will cook even in a Kli Sheini which is Yad Soledes Bo. These are called Kalei Habishul (easily cooked). Since we are not expert in which foods fall into this category, we cannot place any uncooked foods into a Kli Sheini. The exceptions are liquids and spices, since they are clearly specified in the Talmud as not being able to cook in a Kli Sheini.
If the food is further transferred from the Kli Sheini into another bowl or plate, it will then have the status of a Kli Shlishi. The general Halachic concensus is that a Kli Shlishi no longer has the ability to cause cooking at all, even if it is over Yad Soledes Bo.
When food is served from a Kli Rishon with a ladle onto a plate or serving bowl, the ladle may be viewed as the Kli Sheini, making the bowl a Kli Shlishi. This is subject to dispute as there are those who view the ladle as an extension of the Kli Rishon.
Based on the discussion above, if hot meat, kugel or cholent is served onto a plate from the pot or pan that was on the fire, it should have the status of a Kli Sheini. If it was served on a platter and then put onto one’s plate, it should have the status of a Kli Shlishi. Theoretically it should not have the ability to cook.
But this is not necessarily the case. Here we introduce the stringency of a Davar Gush, literally a solid piece.
The Shulchan Aruch[3] rules that one may not rub oil or garlic onto roast meat that is by the fire, since the meat will cook the oil or garlic. The Magen Avraham[4] adds that the same applies even if the meat has been removed from the fire. He then goes a step further, stating that the same Halacha would apply even if the meat was placed in a Kli Sheini.
This ruling follows the opinion of the Poskim[5] who maintain that a hot Davar Gush that is Yad Soledes Bo, will still be able to cook even if it is in a Kli Sheini or even a Kli Shlishi.
The reason that a food in a Kli Sheini is generally unable to cook is because the food cools off as a result of being placed into a vessel that is cold. However, a solid object retains its original heat even when it is transferred to subsequent Kelim. As such, a Davar Gush which is Yad Soledes Bo will retain its ability to cook foods that it comes in contact with, no matter how many subsequent vessels it is transferred to.
Following this opinion, the solid pieces of potato and meat in the cholent would have the status of Davar Gush. If they were to be placed on a plate and come in contact with non-cooked foods (or with previously cooked moist foods that are now cold) such as salads, dips or pickles, the cholent pieces would have the ability to cook these other foods.
The same concern would apply to dipping Challah[6] into hot cholent. Adding condiments to the hot cholent, such as ketchup, mustard and even salt, would also be problematic[7]. The concern with adding condiments or salt would apply even if the cholent is served in a separate bowl.
It should be noted, that the rule of a Davar Gush itself is subject to debate and not all Halachic authorities agree with the stringency[8]. The lenient opinion does not distinguish between the type of food, whether it is solid pieces or not. The fact that the walls of the Kli Sheini are cold is the primary factor to be considered.
The Mishna Berura[9] rules that Lechatchila we are concerned for the opinion of the Magen Avraham, that a Davar Gush continues to be able to cook. However Bedieved, if food were to come into contact with a hot Davar Gush in a Kli Sheini, we would rely on the lenient opinion and not prohibit the food.
In the laws of cooking on Shabbos, the Alter Rebbe[10] brings the ruling of the Shulchan Aruch that one may not rub oil on roasted meat that is Yad Soledes Bo. He does not mention the stringency that this would apply even if the meat was in a Kli Sheini. However, in an earlier Siman, the Alter Rebbe[11] brings the stricter opinion that a Davar Gush will cook even in a Kli Sheini.
Toras Haasham writes that even according to the strict opinion, the rule of a Davar Gush only applies when the solid piece of food is on its own. If the solid food is served together with liquid, just as the liquid will not cook in a Kli Sheini or Kli Shlishi, so too the solid will not be able to cook. An example of this would be a piece of carrot served in a bowl of soup. This would apply even after the liquid is
subsequently removed. If so, the Davar Gush principle would be limited to cases such as a hot piece of kugel or dry-roasted vegetables or meat.
This leniency could be applied to cholent. Since the potatoes and meat from the cholent are mixed with the cholent liquid or sauce, the rule of Davar Gush would not apply. There are however those who reject this leniency entirely[12].
The general approach is that since many Poskim say that there is no stringency of a Davar Gush at all, we can rely on the leniency of the Toras Haasham, that even if a Davar Gush can cook in a Kli Sheini or Kli Shlishi, it will not be able to do so if served with liquid.
Those who wish to be more stringent with a Davar Gush, even when it is served with liquids, have Halachic basis for their practise. This would especially be so if the liquid has cooked away and the cholent has dried out.
______________________________
[1] There is also a stringency to never place anything into a Kli Roshon even if it is less than Yad Soledes Bo
[2] Literally Yad Soledes Bo means that one’s hand recoils from it due to the hot temperature. There is debate amongst the Poskim what temperature Yad Soledes Bo is. Opinions range from 40-45oC. One should be Machmir and be concerned for the lowest measure.
[3] End of Orach Chaim Siman 318
[4] Orach Chaim 318:45
[5] Shach Yoreh Deah 105:8. Maharshal in Yam Shel Shlomo Chullin chapter 7 and Issur Vheter Klal 36
[6] Even though the Challah is fully baked, it is still subject to cooking in a hot liquid. Whilst we say אין בישול אחר בישול , there is בישול אחר אפיה. This means that a baked or dry-roasted food could further in a liquid.
[7] Rock or non-sea salt would certainly be problematic. There are also grounds to be strict even with sea salt which was processed through cooking.
[8] Ram”o in Toras Chatas 1:13 and Darkei Moshe Yoreh Deah 105:4. Tzemach Tzedek (Yoreh Deah 65). Chavas Daas (94:15) points out that even the Maharshal would only be stringent in regards to transfer of taste in relation to the laws of Kashrus, but not concerning cooking on Shabbos. See also Pri Megadim (M.Z. 94:14) and Aruch Hashulchan (94:32).
[9] Seif Koton 118
[10] Orach Chaim 318
[11] Orach Chaim 253 Kuntres Acharon 11
[12] Yad Yehudah 105:14, Chavos Daas 91:13 and Chasam Sofer Yoreh Deah responsa 98